tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post4335051266100720796..comments2024-03-28T16:36:12.581-04:00Comments on Gurney Journey: Part 4. The golden mean and the human bodyJames Gurneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-39276639829049147812017-01-16T06:45:23.321-05:002017-01-16T06:45:23.321-05:00Hi James,
Sorry to revive a really old thread (no...Hi James,<br /><br />Sorry to revive a really old thread (not even sure if you'll pick this up);<br /><br />I'm a skeptic myself, but to say the Greeks didn't think that the golden ratio was divine is incorrect: the Greeks believed that mathematics *were* divine. The laws and principles that ordered and structured nature were seen as divine. Philosophers like Plato and Aristotle may have criticized simplistic, non-philosophical religious belief in dieties, but ultimately theorised their own gods and metaphysical agents like the Demiurge and the 'Unmoved Mover'. This was unavoidable because the highest power in the universe and its organising principle was assumed to be the power of thought, intelligence, consciousness, etc. which imposed structure upon the chaos of matter.<br /><br />Scientific/philosophical and religious/mystical views of nature were joined at the hip for centuries and divorced only very late with the development of the secular scientific world view.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12518485951332189725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-82153780613434633062013-01-20T18:01:52.127-05:002013-01-20T18:01:52.127-05:00Thanks for explaining your thoughts, Jonathan. The...Thanks for explaining your thoughts, Jonathan. There's definitely room for a lot of points of view on this one!James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-48331809044168220062013-01-20T17:46:03.384-05:002013-01-20T17:46:03.384-05:00Thanks, James. I'm writing from a Christian pe...Thanks, James. I'm writing from a Christian perspective, not that it makes a difference here—the three monotheistic religions hold essentially the same beliefs about creation. The golden mean isn't mentioned in the Bible, no. But it doesn't need to be. And I'm certainly not basing my belief in God on mathematical observations of the universe. I'm simply saying that these observations fit very logically with the assumption that the universe is created.<br /><br />I think the term "divine proportion" does not mean that the proportion "is" god, but that it is "of" God. In other words, if a creator exists, phi is his signature. If there was no creator, then we have a very hard time explaining this "aesthetic" phenomenon.jonathanpaulmayerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01700384925558851084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-18857720718349419772013-01-20T07:16:49.272-05:002013-01-20T07:16:49.272-05:00Hi, Jonathan, I didn't bring up religious impl...Hi, Jonathan, I didn't bring up religious implications, but since you did, may I respectfully offer some thoughts for your consideration? I don't know if you're speaking of the Creator from a Jewish, Christian, or Muslim perspective, but to my knowledge, neither the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, nor the Quran make reference to the Golden Mean—it was the Greeks who discovered it, and they didn't regard it as divine, either, just an interesting math principle. The main proponents of the golden mean as the creative force of the universe were atheists in the 19th and 20th century. The mainline religions don't hold phi as a tenet of faith, so whether you find it interesting and useful or whether you are skeptical of it doesn't have any bearing on your core religious beliefs. Worshipping phi as "Divine," however, could be seen by some religions as a form of idolatry. James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-65514161735977667792013-01-19T14:23:58.899-05:002013-01-19T14:23:58.899-05:00There's a reason that the Golden Mean is also ...There's a reason that the Golden Mean is also called the "Divine Proportion." The fact is that there actually is a very logical cause as to why this proportion is played out in nature so universally—it's because the Creator made it that way. It can easily be argued that the universe intrinsically possess a single, aesthetically pleasing proportion if it was created by an intelligent being who values aesthetics and order. However, if nature is simply the product of random, unguided, and ultimately chaotic forces, then of course one will never find an explanation that is "scientifically" satisfactory. The reason you will never win over the skeptic is because the skeptic refuses to entertain the notion of God.jonathanpaulmayerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01700384925558851084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-67289279285855537912013-01-19T06:01:53.123-05:002013-01-19T06:01:53.123-05:00Awesome stuff Tim! It's been a while.. a coupl...Awesome stuff Tim! It's been a while.. a couple years since I've seen your stuff.<br /><br />TIM! Found you! Your stuff is lookin' siiiiiiiiiiick<br /><a href="http://www.artoyster.com" rel="nofollow">Paintings</a>Paintingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08209878408571881637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-84362003620126415742013-01-18T22:24:25.514-05:002013-01-18T22:24:25.514-05:00I'm loving this series, James. Thanks so much...I'm loving this series, James. Thanks so much. I just enrolled in a refresher drawing class and the first day the teacher demonstrated the Vitruvian meansurement for the head as a 'starting point' for portrait drawing. He emphasized that of course no one matches these measurement exactly, but that if you use them as a starting point and then, through observation, modify them to match your model it's hard to go very wrong.<br /><br />He didn't use the term Vitruvian. He's a down home kind of guy who uses terms like black and white and gray instead of talking about values, but he gets his point across very well and he demonstrated these measurements in a way that everyone in the class, including beginners, was able to make a very credible drawing from.Jean At Homehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14288183476087156126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-16288471166549005692013-01-18T19:15:45.020-05:002013-01-18T19:15:45.020-05:00Funny you should mention the ASL, I was just watch...Funny you should mention the ASL, I was just watching Robert Hale's videotaped lectures and he mentioned the 'five eye' measurement and how that can be used to measure other parts of the body - for example the humerus is two five eye lengths, the scapula is one, etc. <br /><br />I also think we lose something when we rely on numeric measurement -which has become a mainstay in the digital age, vs. proportional measurement, which, quincidently, is making something of a 'comeback' because of responsive web design. My Pen Namehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10163003696435139513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-20619744785192265512013-01-18T17:10:00.794-05:002013-01-18T17:10:00.794-05:00Daniel, glad you enjoyed the Lyman Allyn show. It ...Daniel, glad you enjoyed the Lyman Allyn show. It will be up through February 2. After that there will be another Dinotopia exhibition from February 20-March 13 in Manchester, New Hampshire. This exhibit has completely different paintings. http://www.nhia.edu/dinotopia-the-fantastical-art-of-james-gurney/<br /><br />Thanks, Edward and Craig! James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-35506483523125010852013-01-18T16:34:11.435-05:002013-01-18T16:34:11.435-05:00Hi James. A bit off topic, but I wanted to mention...Hi James. A bit off topic, but I wanted to mention your exhibition at the Lyman Allyn Art Museum. I'm a student at Concept Design Academy in Pasadena and I visited New London to see the exhibit on Tuesday. I learnt so much from seeing your beautiful paintings in person and enjoyed the time I spent in the exhibit. It's so big! I hope you'll have many more exhibits in future so as many people as possible have a chance to have a similar experience.Daniel Besthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324352556841022279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-63448217072949296682013-01-18T14:23:38.760-05:002013-01-18T14:23:38.760-05:00I'm loving this series. You make a good point...I'm loving this series. You make a good point here: If the Vitruvian system has given us some of the greatest art ever, but the Golden Section system has mainly given us strange architecture and uncomfortable furniture, it's a no-brainer which system the contemporary realist artist ought to prefer. Thanks!Craig Banholzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16958933400558297331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-66530269709944119452013-01-18T09:07:17.698-05:002013-01-18T09:07:17.698-05:00I'm more of a skeptic and it's always both...I'm more of a skeptic and it's always bothered me how often golden ratio is taught uncritically by teachers who often don't really use it. Thanks for doing this series, you're certainly a good candidate for it.Edward Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02020227799163196037noreply@blogger.com