tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post5760672995447107297..comments2024-03-18T07:23:32.809-04:00Comments on Gurney Journey: Lightfastness and Alizarin CrimsonJames Gurneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-89495668715109451922021-06-24T09:55:11.052-04:002021-06-24T09:55:11.052-04:00Definitely not. Watercolors are more fugitive than...Definitely not. Watercolors are more fugitive than oils.Matheushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06347286618606493930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-54752851234530755682017-06-21T12:00:29.084-04:002017-06-21T12:00:29.084-04:00How do UV protective varnishes affect this issue? ...How do UV protective varnishes affect this issue? Do they make use of AC acceptable again?Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07625048842114393617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-79337398814146551012011-04-21T15:19:17.612-04:002011-04-21T15:19:17.612-04:00An artist told me shortly after posting this that ...An artist told me shortly after posting this that they had been to a meeting where a W&N representative said that they 'do not manufacture ANY fugitive paints, just that some are less light fast than others'. According to their tests AC fades in thin washes in a brightly lit conservatory after 20 years, but in spot colour you won't really notice. Hmmm...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10693120871801660888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-64807924614520590762011-04-06T16:21:06.672-04:002011-04-06T16:21:06.672-04:00Thanks everyone for the info - I've been trust...Thanks everyone for the info - I've been trusting the W&N ratings but now will do my own tests. They say on their site the reason they still produce fugitive paints (in watercolour at least) is so that people who are producing work intended for production in magazines or what have you can still achieve certain colours they would not otherwise be able to. They site opera rose as a colour unobtainable using any other pigment (PR122).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10693120871801660888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-75150684655753743402010-04-22T00:34:56.045-04:002010-04-22T00:34:56.045-04:00Very interesting information! I was always curiou...Very interesting information! I was always curious why colors like Alizarin Crimson have such a high lightfastness (my gouache of Aliz. crimson and Spectrum violet are IV and V respectively) Although my Acrylic version is a Liquixtex Alizarin Crimson Hue Permanent which has a lightfastness of I because it's made of Quinacridone, and the pigment's pretty much the same. Although I've also used Quinacridone in acrylics (golden brand) and theirs is slightly more red than violet. Thanks for the info! I'll be sure to keep that in mind when purchasing colors.Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07106498281206613391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-28728114562866378222010-04-21T16:27:43.032-04:002010-04-21T16:27:43.032-04:00Thank you, Kent, that's really interesting, an...Thank you, Kent, that's really interesting, and those are reputable makers. It just goes to show we have to be really cautious about label claims, and the only way to be sure is to test them out ourselves and share results online. Thanks to Mr. Elliott for doing the tests.James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-2245579769426154932010-04-21T16:18:33.434-04:002010-04-21T16:18:33.434-04:00The painter Virgil Elliott (author of Traditional ...The painter Virgil Elliott (author of Traditional Oil Painting), did a test panel several years ago with many (19) varieties of alizarin and alizarin replacements. I have an image of the test panel, but cannot post it into a comment.<br /><br />Each sample was tested as impasto, as a thin glaze-like layer, and in a 50/50 mix with flake white, and placed in a south-facing window.<br /><br />Anything that had PR83 in it, as James already mentioned, fared poorly.<br /><br />Over the next few years, of those 19, only 2 showed themselves to be fairly lightfast: Archival Oils Alizarine Permanent (PR175 / PR122), and M. Graham's Quinacridone Rose (PV19).<br /><br />However, even those using other pigments, including ones that claim to be 'permanent' were not:<br />These only had moderate performance - they still showed significant fading:<br />Sennelier Rose Madder Lake<br />Gamblin's Alizarin Permanent<br />W&N Rose Madder Genuine<br />Mussini Permanent Madder Red<br />Grumbacher<br /><br />W&N Permanent Alizin, as well as Schmincke Ruby Madder, Holbein, and Old Holland Alizarin Crimson Lake Extra were all poor performersKent Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03558577222591201534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-36759845829133514322010-04-19T14:17:56.783-04:002010-04-19T14:17:56.783-04:00sYes Jim this is such good information that you ar...sYes Jim this is such good information that you are sharing with everyone. Thanks DaveDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12486920537424705694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-43952730556991577402010-04-18T20:35:22.444-04:002010-04-18T20:35:22.444-04:00Winsor & Newton, which is the blue-ribbon comp...Winsor & Newton, which is the blue-ribbon company for watercolors, does two things which I find very questionable.<br /><br />1: Alizarin Crimson (PR83) is listed at Permanency B- moderately durable. But based on the Handprint.com results, and others, in sunlight it is completely fugitive in washes and very much altered in mass-tone. Opera Rose (Fluorescent dye! & Quin Rose, PR 122) also is rated as Permanency B. So what does it take to earn a C in this rating system?<br /><br />2: In the description for Aliz. Crimson/PR 83 they give the "ASTM lightfastness rating: N/L" BUT according to their "Composition and Permanence Terms Explained" section, this doesn't stand for "Not Lightfast," it stands for "Not Listed". I don't have access to the ASTM ratings. However, this is not a new, or uncommon pigment, and it has known durability issues. If this pigment is not rated, the ASTM system is useless for evaluating pigments, and if it is rated then W&N misrepresents the rating.Celestehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02347530943314254892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-21016161206916162482010-04-18T18:53:52.486-04:002010-04-18T18:53:52.486-04:00I find all of your post on lightfastness interesti...I find all of your post on lightfastness interesting and informative. I wonder how these same pigments would be affected by the preservative sprays such as Blair's digital archival spray. It's supposed to preserve digital prints for many years even in UV light.Jan Popehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08310486100900772714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-13625875461898541842010-04-18T18:46:11.340-04:002010-04-18T18:46:11.340-04:00So is Windsor and Newtons Permanant Alizarin Crims...So is Windsor and Newtons Permanant Alizarin Crimson safer to use?? we were discussing this in class the other day.Allisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16893044548209283873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-29207349892061324542010-04-18T12:32:54.953-04:002010-04-18T12:32:54.953-04:00discussions about the fugitive nature of alizirian...discussions about the fugitive nature of alizirian.. and even more so, rose madder baffle and confuse me to the point where i don't want to use them. ... but they are so darn useful - particularly with watercolors..<br /><br />the claims and counter claims are endless for example, i have heard rose madder- even the geniune kind - is not fugitive if it is not mixed with earth colors like yellow ochre (thus someone claimed you can still see it clearly in fran hals paintings)My Pen Namehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10163003696435139513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-181643064605085292010-04-18T11:03:32.987-04:002010-04-18T11:03:32.987-04:00Jim - In watercolor, do the replacement alizarins ...Jim - In watercolor, do the replacement alizarins stain like the original pigment?Jean Wogamanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14464446396668373473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-79952441317791585082010-04-18T10:55:37.829-04:002010-04-18T10:55:37.829-04:00Jim, the main surprise in the Wikipedia piece I qu...Jim, the main surprise in the Wikipedia piece I quoted yesterday was this: <br /><br />"Modern lightfast watercolors are now more stable than oil or acrylic mediums."<br /><br />Does that seem true to you? (Leaving aside the question as to whether the final word should have been "media").<br /><br />It's always good to see handprint.com cited. It's an amazing resource.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09596875722436085739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-78957007069893693172010-04-18T10:53:26.049-04:002010-04-18T10:53:26.049-04:00Curious if this holds true for oils as well.Curious if this holds true for oils as well.Charles Valsechihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06041325601134421884noreply@blogger.com