tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post7215413100334857251..comments2024-03-18T07:23:32.809-04:00Comments on Gurney Journey: Why do chimps paint?James Gurneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-29491458758060512672013-03-15T08:18:17.824-04:002013-03-15T08:18:17.824-04:00Nathaniel, awesome. Keep me posted about the exper...Nathaniel, awesome. Keep me posted about the experience.James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-87079777005420614882013-03-15T08:03:57.572-04:002013-03-15T08:03:57.572-04:00Thanks so much James! I have only seen these chimp...Thanks so much James! I have only seen these chimps painting on film but the same week the show opens I will be headed down to Florida to meet them.Nathaniel Goldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00226104285287774900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-78574023045427115422013-03-15T03:01:14.766-04:002013-03-15T03:01:14.766-04:00Nathaniel, fascinating video, and what an amazing ...Nathaniel, fascinating video, and what an amazing collaboration. Have you been able to watch the chimpanzees doing their art, or have they watched you? I have always wondered what they see when they look at a human-created representational picture, or perhaps better yet, what might come from an interaction with a human artist whom they can watch painting representationally.James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-7818610005205717282013-03-14T22:11:28.859-04:002013-03-14T22:11:28.859-04:00James great post I'm currently collaberating w...James great post I'm currently collaberating with a group of chimps that live in sanctuary in Florida on some paintings and a gallery show. I made a quick film about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMReyxxgq2s Nathaniel Goldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00226104285287774900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-78603350560837546102013-03-14T21:26:16.825-04:002013-03-14T21:26:16.825-04:00Craig, good point. So much effort has been put int...Craig, good point. So much effort has been put into "de-defining" art that trying to define it nowadays is practically impossible. But "art" is such a nice, short, punchy word that I would hate to see it rendered meaningless. And what about the word "artist"? It has been co-opted by musicians. Let's take it back, folks!<br /><br />Seriously, although no definition is perfect, the one I keep coming back to is Tolstoy's, which goes something like this: "Art is an activity consisting in this: that one person consciously, by means of certain external signs, transmits to others feelings he has experienced, and by means of the artwork, that other people are infected by those feelings and also experience them.” James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-24495000986287321502013-03-14T20:22:57.237-04:002013-03-14T20:22:57.237-04:00If we lower the bar on the definition of art far e...If we lower the bar on the definition of art far enough, as has been the case in the past century or so, then it should come as no surprise that chimps and elephants can make art according to that definition. Congo's paintings are as good or better than any by Cy Twombly I've ever seen. Also, human beings are mammals, and it should not be too surprising that other mammals of high intelligence are receptive to using brush and paints much the same way we do. On the other hand, I agree with Simone's suggestion that art is not just the innate urge towards creativity, but something much larger. Craig Banholzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16958933400558297331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-34411379459780916272013-03-14T16:25:22.458-04:002013-03-14T16:25:22.458-04:00what a coincidence! I was talking about Desmond Mo...what a coincidence! I was talking about Desmond Morris last week. One of the most instrumental books I read when I was growing up (that my dad took from him when he did his Master's in Bradford) was "ManWatching". I LOVE that book and have read it cover to cover several times in my life! Thank you for this post! :) Oh, and Happy Pi day!krystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11943824077845596208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-72128656484130508882013-03-14T15:47:11.221-04:002013-03-14T15:47:11.221-04:00"...obsessed with the experience, favoring it..."...obsessed with the experience, favoring it over eating or sex"<br /><br />"was repeatedly clear that he had a very distinct concept of when a drawing or painting was finished"<br /><br />Well, the Chimps got a lead on me with those!JonInFrancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05623398725744947374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-90372208473501775092013-03-14T11:24:54.001-04:002013-03-14T11:24:54.001-04:00I guess when someone looks at a painting and says ...I guess when someone looks at a painting and says "a chimp could paint better than that" They might be right.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05975643397065262440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-1290926924346539352013-03-14T10:45:08.105-04:002013-03-14T10:45:08.105-04:00Etc, those are reasonable objections. Are the chim...Etc, those are reasonable objections. Are the chimps really doing art spontaneously; is the activity really self-reinforcing; and are there any discernable formal principles at work— or is it just random movement? Morris's book addresses those points pretty thoroughly. His "six biological principles" (which I paraphrased as best I could in the post) are sort of his broad conclusions, but one would have to read the whole book to evaluate his experimental parameters and critical analysis.James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-61269888261658305092013-03-14T10:37:18.306-04:002013-03-14T10:37:18.306-04:00In every video I have seen, even though a palette ...In every video I have seen, even though a palette of various colors is set before the animal, they have to be prompted by humans to make variations in color. Doesn't that interference in the process greatly influence our perception that it is "art"?<br /><br />How do you know the animal isn't simply enjoying the exercising of its motor skills (which in and of itself could explain the tendency to shapes and patterns), especially in a situation where it is removed from its normal and natural habitat? The all important aesthetic factor could be nonexistent<br /><br />There really seems to be no attempt whatsoever at critical analysis here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-27840689738027229232013-03-14T08:40:11.872-04:002013-03-14T08:40:11.872-04:00Simone, I totally sympathize with your point. In t...Simone, I totally sympathize with your point. In this post, I'm not ranking what's "true" or "pure" or "good art." I'm just challenging the claim that art-making is uniquely human. Modernists, notably Picasso, have suggested that in their adult work they were trying to capture the spirit of children's art, or even animal "fauvist" art. For me, Picasso's wish is valid only for emulating a child's enthusiastic and pure hearted zeal for the doing of it, but not for the outward form of the art, which seems to me like a pointless and impossible goal. As a child, I remember being hungry to learn how to draw accurately, so that my art looked real. I didn't want praise from adults; I wanted practical guidance. James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-91974473737612562222013-03-14T08:26:22.883-04:002013-03-14T08:26:22.883-04:00Lucas, yes, the debate about animal art as a condi...Lucas, yes, the debate about animal art as a conditioned behavior often centers around the elephants in Thailand who are trained to paint as a performance for tourists. But Morris's chimp studies seem to prove that the motivation is exactly the reverse of classical conditioning. Congo picked up the pencil on his own and drew his first line without any suggestion, and once he got into it, treats or rewards actually had the reverse effect. <br /><br />Kelleewynne, I know what you mean. I have had to rewire my brain as a result of this, too. Botstein seems to exclude children's painting as art-making, and I really disagree with him there. <br /><br />One animal activity that seems to be on the boundary line between "play" and "art" is the way dolphins create bubble rings. Is it a form of dance? Does it have an aesthetic component? Is it art? Or just goofing around? See for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMCf7SNUb-QJames Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-3338979556997107222013-03-14T08:26:20.974-04:002013-03-14T08:26:20.974-04:00Guess Morris' experiments prove that art "...Guess Morris' experiments prove that art "just flows out of us". No advanced cognition or training is necessary. All those rules and principles just get in the way of "true expression" anyway. That didn't sound too snarkey, did it? Robert J. Simonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06799208093956328662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-69645346100402338312013-03-14T08:11:07.284-04:002013-03-14T08:11:07.284-04:00I have been arguing that art isn't uniquely hu...I have been arguing that art isn't uniquely human in my arts appreciation class, but they equate any animal painting as a Pavlov's Dog experiment.SletchbookLPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10192383484880392906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-78258234761180485962013-03-14T07:59:15.193-04:002013-03-14T07:59:15.193-04:00I often say that art is what makes us human - what...I often say that art is what makes us human - what separates us from machine and animal....I guess now I must rethink my declaration! This is fascinating!Kelleewynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13369308971645657184noreply@blogger.com