tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post7294554741605262264..comments2024-03-18T07:23:32.809-04:00Comments on Gurney Journey: The Elgin Marbles and the ParthenonJames Gurneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-23504022826238740462009-10-31T14:56:42.189-04:002009-10-31T14:56:42.189-04:00of cource, you would say I am a greek, that's ...of cource, you would say I am a greek, that's why I want the Marbles of Parthenon (and not the elgin ones) back to Athens<br /><br />Ancient History though, is astonishingly overwhelming - many travellers have understood it since 500 b.C. and today <br /><br />british museum's arrogance is almost at the top of their ignorance: they see the masterpieces as 'products' to get profit <br /><br />beyond unfortunate comparisons, please take a closer look over the unique circumstances of this case <br /><br />thanks for readingonlysandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16952249930327623732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-25942375682713655272009-07-01T07:29:27.522-04:002009-07-01T07:29:27.522-04:00>The Ottomans were there for a >while and no...>The Ottomans were there for a >while and now they're gone. >That's temporary.<br /><br />The problem is that we don't know if a situation is temporary until after the fact. When are you allowed to do business with an occupying power? When does it become a "permanent", or legitimate ruler of a region? Am I allowed to start doing business with the USA right now or should I wait a while longer to see if the Native Americans get their land back? <br /><br />>I think all those who engage in >empire building are notorious, at >the very least, to the indigenous >people who are subjugated or >displaced by their empires.<br /><br />It is ironic that the Parthenon was actually used as the treasury building for the Athenian Empire, and it was built with funds from the Delian league. So it is quite an imperialistic symbol in itself. As soon as the Greeks got rid of the empirialistic Persians, the Athenians built their own empire, which was resented enough that it started the Peloponnesian war. I think that we might get some perspective if we got on a time machine and asked the Athenians who made those marbles what they think of our current legal/moral question. To get a feeling for the answer, we might recall the famous passage from the Melian Dialogue:<br /><br />"The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." <br /><br />These were the views of the original owners of the Parthenon: the inventors of realpolitik.António Araújohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10477716038667816702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-11721130049418788052009-06-30T03:30:05.082-04:002009-06-30T03:30:05.082-04:00The right thing for the Greeks to do is to acknowl...The right thing for the Greeks to do is to acknowledge that the Ottomans were only trying to help them (the Greeks) to preserve their heritage and culture when they conquered them and sold off their Marbles to the Brits for safekeeping. Then they should profusely thank the Brits for taking such good care of them, Heck! They should probably even offer to pay for their stewardship, and reimburse the Brits what they originally paid for them. (This should please the lawyers… No offence meant, some of my best friends are lawyers) Then Nashville should offer to trade the Greeks their New Parthenon for the Greeks’ old beat up and incomplete one. This will so offend the French that they will offer to conquer GeatBriton and with their authority as conquerors take the original marbles for saferkeeping, in the Louver. <br /><br />Either that or the Brits should give the Marbles back. (Just because it’s the right thing to do.) <br />Besides they could always barrow Nashville’s. (they should also consider trading Big Ben for a replica of Mt. Rushmore, or maybe a Statue of Liberty, I think Las Vegas might go for it. What’s you wager? ) -RQRobertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01751501281929627657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-77189409816573808312009-06-30T03:14:35.534-04:002009-06-30T03:14:35.534-04:00Given that we know that history of Elgin saving th...Given that we know that history of Elgin saving the marbles, and can trace back the political climate within which that sale took place, that alone places the discussion in a different area from the more general "stonehenge" DNA situation.<br /><br />We cannot expect to go back and somehow rewrite the last 200 years of history, for all the reasons that have been listed above: the sale, as it was, at the time, was totally legal and, it turns out, necessary for the survival of the artwork. There is no distinct moral imperative here, however, there is an emotional one, and that more than most, is fueling the discussion. <br /><br />If my grandparents had artwork stolen from them by the nazis, then yes, I would try to get the work back. If my grandfather sold soemthing that i wanted, i can't bitch decades later that i was cheated. Its gone and thats it. No amount of wanting on my part makes that piece of artwork mine for any greater other than my desire for it. <br /><br />Greece may have achieved a small amount of economic and politial stability in the late 20th century, but it has been stable for a much smaller time than it was ruled by the Ottomans, so does that give the decisions that the Greeks made in the last 50 years less weight than those from the last 300? No, they're just different time periods, filled with different political entities with different ends to their means. What appears to be politically correct now will appear perhaps bizarre in another 50 years. <br /><br />The marbles stay in London.inkdestroyedmybrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09037083364689982443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-39465592333660792312009-06-29T23:22:53.002-04:002009-06-29T23:22:53.002-04:00Apatoff writes: "some say that governments su...Apatoff writes: "some say that governments such as the Greek government lose their property rights in national items when they become too weak to defend themselves and their government is replaced by a new government (in this case, a conquering neighbor)." Not sure who says this, but by this criterion no contemporary country with an ancient civilization has any rights to the works of art commissioned and created by its artists. Egypt, China, Israel, Rome... have all been conquered, but I haven't noticed them forfeiting their rights to the artistic creations of their ancient forbears.Rubysboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18297283241233455330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-52801915070598105522009-06-29T22:47:30.844-04:002009-06-29T22:47:30.844-04:00My initial thought was that the marbles should be ...My initial thought was that the marbles should be returned to Greece. However, considering all the internal political turmoil that Greece has suffered in the past century alone, some talibanesque crazies could seize control and destroy them. The marbles might be safer in a more politically stable Great Britain just as they were in the past.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-82745111489334385772009-06-29T21:59:52.796-04:002009-06-29T21:59:52.796-04:00I lack the wisdom and background knowledge to say ...I lack the wisdom and background knowledge to say where the marbles should go, but, since you filed this post under "pencil sketching," I wanted to say I admired (as always) the drawings. Also, I commend everyone for resisting the temptation to use the phrase, "The Greeks have lost their marbles."Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09596875722436085739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-69111014997606820762009-06-29T20:24:31.212-04:002009-06-29T20:24:31.212-04:00I am very glad to have seen the Parthenon exhibit ...I am very glad to have seen the Parthenon exhibit at the British Museum. It was a fascinating experience to share with my children. I'm glad I don't actually have to figure out this dilemma, but I have to say, I think the planners of the New Acropolis Mus. bought the dress before they were invited to the prom.Dar Prestohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18245489884040175930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-6034145357349063612009-06-29T19:31:52.806-04:002009-06-29T19:31:52.806-04:00i, me,
I think all those who engage in empire bui...i, me,<br /><br />I think all those who engage in empire building are notorious, at the very least, to the indigenous people who are subjugated or displaced by their empires.<br /><br />The Ottomans were there for a while and now they're gone. That's temporary.<br /><br />That said, I certainly see your point. The status quo has been good for the works in question and great for the viewing public. I'm really glad I don't have to decide for real.craigstephenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16061315500937089274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-55050934079264689782009-06-29T18:00:09.055-04:002009-06-29T18:00:09.055-04:00Meh. Leave them in London. More "thank you fo...Meh. Leave them in London. More "thank you for saving our marbles" and less "gimme that back, it's mine!" might have swayed me, however. They are in a beautiful, reverent setting where they are, anyhow.<br /><br />And the Parthenon in Nashville is cast in aggregate cement. It lacks a certain...delicacy. And, ummm...taste. That was where Nashville's young stoners hung out, one of which I was, once.<br /><br />It was right across the street from Old Colony Cleaners. Some jerk was always stealing the 'y' off the sign.S. Weaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17081301454448509736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-29038875197743750972009-06-29T16:10:14.343-04:002009-06-29T16:10:14.343-04:00If I were going to the Parthenon, I would want to ...If I were going to the Parthenon, I would want to see the statues there. I think it makes a lot more sense. <br /><br />I understand the British wanting possession, but I think Greece is the right place for them, especially now that they have a proper museum for them. <br /><br />Just from the viewpoint of someone visiting a place and wanting to understand its history, it makes more sense. While in Paris, I was thrilled to see the Delacroix works there and the other French artists. It really made me understand them to be in the place they were created, with the beautiful light of Paris and being able to easily access its history right there. <br /><br />Then again, I would rather visit Greece than London, so perhaps that's a part of how I feel. Visiting London is mostly a pain in the butt.donnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00762690167864156774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-37568813267982397012009-06-29T15:23:24.557-04:002009-06-29T15:23:24.557-04:00Wow, huge turnout on this topic! This always brin...Wow, huge turnout on this topic! This always brings up a good discussion amongst knowledgeable folk, and today hasn't disappointed.<br /><br />I'm going to plant my feet firmly in "Keeping them in London." The reasoning for this? Not because of who rightfully got the marbles from who at the right time, or anything like that. It boils down to this sensibility to me: I am far more likely to visit London and see not only the Elgin marbles, but the other large myriad of cultural artifacts/museums/etc. than I am to go to Greece to just see uniquely Greek artifacts.<br /><br />I would almost think that it's a disservice to have museums end up being such focused reflections of the local culture. I always enjoyed the art and science museums that had diversity. It broadens your view, and shows you there's more than just the little bubble you have around you.<br /><br />And the captcha machine continues to grasp at one language or another, because my word today is "shisi".Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18262476114387821096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-90268285727934855522009-06-29T14:54:51.003-04:002009-06-29T14:54:51.003-04:00I saw the Elgin marbles in London a few years back...I saw the Elgin marbles in London a few years back, and I couldn't help thinking how much more of an impact they would have if one could see them where they were originally designed to be. <br /><br />Though I appreciated being able to see them in London, it just feels right that they should be returned. London has no real right to them, after all.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01679485132057382813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-26149406268561836052009-06-29T13:22:43.356-04:002009-06-29T13:22:43.356-04:00British were also notorious empire 'notorious...<i> British were also notorious empire </i> 'notorious' compared to whom the mongol hordes, the beligians, the Chinese? The Japanese? The Moors? The Ottomans? The Mughals? The Aztects? <br />This, I think, is the really 'motivation' behind the desire to 'return' the marbles to Greece. <br /><br /><i>The Ottoman's sold them while they were temporarily in possession</i>Temporary? they ruled for 350 years, which is longer than the US has been in existence, and very possibly, will be.<br /><br />Once again, I will ask:<br /><br />A. what constitutes rightful ownership of such public works - lets assume that the majority of Englishmen today are largely of Saxon origin (I know there are arguments back and forth about this) do they have a 'right' to stonehenge, when in all likelihood they actually drove the people out who created it?<br /><br />I am highly skeptical that the current residents of Athens are the DNA descendants of Athens circa 300BC. <br /><br />b. Where does it end? I think the marbles would be the beginning,not the end, of such squabbles though people would think it would satiated the Greek government, as with other entitlements, it will only spark the desire for more.i, mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14866554133662047782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-19840301895722274002009-06-29T13:04:44.011-04:002009-06-29T13:04:44.011-04:00David, WOW, what a thorough approach to the issues...David, WOW, what a thorough approach to the issues. For those who don't recognize his name, David Apatoff, in addition to being a brilliant legal mind, runs one of the most interesting art/illustration blogs, which today has a fascinating post on the<br /><a href="http://illustrationart.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Illustration Academy in Sarasota</a>.James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-5031639482942639932009-06-29T12:38:59.092-04:002009-06-29T12:38:59.092-04:00James, here is a lawyer's perspective: the Elg...James, here is a lawyer's perspective: the Elgin Marbles are probably the thorniest of all of the so-called "cultural patrimony" cases. Not only are they a highly emotional mess, but the facts are complex and tangled as well. Lord Elgin saved the marbles from certain destruction at great personal expense and risk; the Turkish army that occupied Greece at the time was actively burning ancient Greek sculptures to get lime to build fortifications. Without Elgin, there would be no scultptures today to squabble about. Then there is the added complexity created by the role of Turkey: some say that governments such as the Greek government lose their property rights in national items when they become too weak to defend themselves and their government is replaced by a new government (in this case, a conquering neighbor). The Turkish government had sovereignty over the Elgin marbles at the time they were removed and gave the Brits formal approval to take them, so in that sense their removal was legal and "authorized," regardless of what we might think about the morals. And finally, you have the obvious Greek cultural interest: as the birthplace of western philosophy and science, you'd think Greece was entitled to a little consideration and deference on this point (balanced against the fact that until recently the Greeks were notorious for mistreating their cultural treasures and might not have objected to the removal of the marbles).<br /> <br />There's an old saying in the law that "bad facts make bad law." That is, if you try to build a general rule around the most extreme, emotional fact situations like this one, you'll end up with a law that isn't very helpful for the vast majority of cases. <br /><br />Most people may not be aware that there is a huge inventory of antiquities out there, and many local museums are choking on more material than they could ever properly exhibit or even take care of. Thousands and thousands of ancient ceramic pots lie on warehouse shelves gathering dust. I don't know if you've ever been to the Cairo museum but there is such a glut of material there, it is stacked up in the corners and draped on top of bookshelves. While I was there, they were painting the walls and didn't even bother to cover a large, dusty mummified crocodile with a drop cloth so it was being spattered with paint. This is a common story today-- nations and museums around the world are so obssessed with hanging onto their cultural heritage that they would rather see it crumble due to humidity, insects, pollution and unqualified employees than see an artifact slip across the border. <br /><br />In my view, this narrow mindedness does not help anyone, including the cultural stature of the original artists whose work is never shared. My view is that such countries need a broader appreciation for the value in sending excess artifacts out around the world for cultural cross-fertilization purposes, as long as they are being put in trustworthy hands. Once everyone agrees that an originating country has a healthy, representative collection of their antiquities (well cared for) at home, there should be a more open and legitimate international trade in excess ancient art. This would keep treasures out of the hands of smugglers and art dealers. International sales and trades could be a good thing for cultural appreciation and understanding if they were openly regulated with standards that everyone can agree upon.<br /><br />I recognize that it would be hard to apply such a rule to unique, monumental works such as the Elgin marbles, but even those I would leave where they are, for now. They have done Greece a great deal of good in the eyes of the world in their current location.<br /><br />Sorry to drone on so long. That's the lawyer in me. I really love your blog, James and come here often.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-68956894318054510432009-06-29T12:28:33.052-04:002009-06-29T12:28:33.052-04:00This is a tougher question than I thought it would...This is a tougher question than I thought it would be. Giving them back to the Greeks sounds like a good idea, after all, they were originally created by Greek artists and paid for by the Greek citizenry as Decker pointed out. <br /><br />The Ottoman's sold them while they were temporarily in possession but isn't that kind of like buying a stolen car? Granted, the sale ended up working out pretty well for the car but if I was the original owner of that car I'd still be pretty bummed. <br /><br />A great case is also there for leaving them where they are. The British were also notorious empire builders and I'm sure they figured the Ottoman's rule would continue indefinitely. As far as they are concerned it was a legal sale made with the legal owner.<br /><br />The more I think on it the more I like Goo Goo's 50/50 solution. Unfortunately, I don't think either side will go for it.craigstephenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16061315500937089274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-90725476267818143602009-06-29T10:45:15.170-04:002009-06-29T10:45:15.170-04:00Wow, that is a tough one. I don't know how we ...Wow, that is a tough one. I don't know how we would ever right all the wrongs of history. I like Goo Goo's suggestion. If it was done because London wants to, and not because they have to -- it would be a good gesture toward a land that wants to display it's own heritage.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423051076809524563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-37309615479413188992009-06-29T10:41:04.886-04:002009-06-29T10:41:04.886-04:00I think the marbles should be returned to Greece. ...I think the marbles should be returned to Greece. The decisive factor for me is that, unlike most works of art, the Parthenon was commissioned by the then government of Athens and paid for by the people of the city as a civic monument.Rubysboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18297283241233455330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-79196664057236791762009-06-29T10:37:52.265-04:002009-06-29T10:37:52.265-04:00If I go to Europe I hope to see London and Athens ...If I go to Europe I hope to see London and Athens (and Amsterdam, Paris, Germany, Prague, the Alps, Venice, Florence and Rome) on the same trip, so it's sort of all the same to me. Although as an English speaker already hoping to visit museums in London, I'd prefer them to stay there, but that is just selfish reasoning. Perhaps the museum in Athens can commission something expensive to draw people back to London?Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00042950147476752956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-82801247127133961992009-06-29T10:00:29.414-04:002009-06-29T10:00:29.414-04:00Nashville, Tennessee has an intact full-size repli...Nashville, Tennessee has an intact full-size replica of the Parthenon. It has 24-foot-high doors (the largest pair of bronze doors in the world) and 41 foot high Athena. <br /><br />It may not have any original stuff, but it's a great way to get a feel for how the original looked with the sculptures in place. If only they would polychrome the thing.... Here's a link with lots of photos: <br /><a href="http://www.nashville.gov/Parthenon/PhotoGallery.htm" rel="nofollow">Link.</a>James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-33288703924567522302009-06-29T09:31:05.520-04:002009-06-29T09:31:05.520-04:00Here's the article.<a href="www.huffingtonpost.com/eleni-gage/if-we-ask-nicely-can-we-h_b_219140.html" rel="nofollow">Here's the article.</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03272208124749424615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-37347880049529619992009-06-29T09:30:29.007-04:002009-06-29T09:30:29.007-04:00While Elgin may have had the approval to remove it...<i>While Elgin may have had the approval to remove items from the ruling authorities, we must remember that the ruling authorities at that time were oppressors and not Greek authority</i><br />if it were an oppressive greek government would that be ok? <br />Whose to say that the "Greeks' in that area are even the direct descendants of the actual builders much like say, "Briton" england has been overrrun Anglo-Saxon since the building of Stonehenge.i, mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14866554133662047782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-79286600082585240922009-06-29T09:28:11.371-04:002009-06-29T09:28:11.371-04:00Goo Goo...Gilliam M...
Have you ever heard of King...Goo Goo...Gilliam M...<br />Have you ever heard of King Solomon :) <br /><br />anyway, It is my opinion they should stay where they are. <br />a. if Elgin did not save them, they would not be around - at the time, locals were literally hacking off pieces and selling them to tourists.<br />b. He purchased them fair and square - no one argues about that.<br />c. Where does it end? If Greece can have the marbles, then does egypt get her treasures? Does Italy get back napoleon's plunder which currently makes up the bulk of the Louvre? <br /><br />In my opinion it time to stop this sort of bickering (i don't mean the discussion here, but Greece's demands) and move on. Besides, having artifacts in musuems all over the world is the greatest "come see beautiful greece!" travel brochure in the world.<br /><br />side note: where I went to school they had casts of the full frieze- which was quite rare, since, I beleive one ship with the marbles foundered on its way to england -t the casts were taken before they were transported...now if someone recovered those!i, mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14866554133662047782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-4811774757965932582009-06-29T09:26:30.622-04:002009-06-29T09:26:30.622-04:00Correction:
My 'Chief Seattle' quote seems...Correction:<br />My 'Chief Seattle' quote seems to be from a 1970 movie script rather than the actual speech.<br />Ooops...<br />But my point is still clear:)<br /><br />And, ah yes, of course : music is indeed the best example of the 'universality' of art.<br />What a luxury for Musical Art that it cannot be locked up in a banksafe.Erik Bongershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02409523352634066030noreply@blogger.com