tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post8341837713310561465..comments2024-03-18T07:23:32.809-04:00Comments on Gurney Journey: Part 2: The Golden Mean and LeonardoJames Gurneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-14360330843382057602015-04-12T21:32:38.446-04:002015-04-12T21:32:38.446-04:00Hi James,
Kind of a latecommer to your wonderful...Hi James, <br /><br />Kind of a latecommer to your wonderful site. Just a comment about this subject...<br />I know the fanatical devotion geometry ("sacred" or otherwise) inspires in many artists and influential teachers. <br /><br />The only thing I want to say about this is that I don't think this subject belongs in either the categories of unassailable dogma or "pseudoscience". <br /><br />I have looked at many of my photos and drawings from my youth when I knew almost nothing about formal composition and definitely nothing about the golden mean. It "clicks" as you say, more often than not. <br />I get that it's one thing to say that the ancients consciously used it, and quite another for it to atually be present in the work. <br />If it can be found in nature, and mapped onto the human body under average conditions, individual (uniqueness notwithstanding) it is needn't be deliberate, mystical or (proto/psuedo) science driving it's more than cooincidental presence in art, design and architecture through the ages. It could very well be just be instinctual or subconscious or even consciously or semi-consciously eyeballed - which would account for the slight "fuzziness" in peoples mappings of one onto the other. <br />The bias you speak of doesn't have to come from wishful theorists but could be there on the part of the artists themselves. <br />Barnstone has a lot to say about root rectangles and he can map that stuff onto art until the cows come home. Did the artists necessarily consciously use them or is it a case that "copying from nature" inserts it into the work and the habits and instincts covertly? <br />Who knows? <br />It's just me, but I personally wouldn't be so quick to apply a scientific/skeptical bias or label just because there are exceptions and an apparent, as yet, lack of found documentation. This lack can be for the reasons I just proposed OR, if said geometry WAS indeed part of a "mystical" transmission among "initiates" of "mystery schools" they wouldn't have written it down explicitly. To me it doesn't really matter which. <br />But, while you aren't necessarily "overturning apple carts" by saying, "if it helps you make art have at it, but it's probably pseudoscience for wishful thinkers" you are still, in my opinion, creating artificial categories of validity.Kingdubrockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00208390446450099849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-25013094582514941072013-01-19T11:32:30.018-05:002013-01-19T11:32:30.018-05:00Excellent series! I especially enjoyed the source ...Excellent series! I especially enjoyed the source material in the links! The evidence points to confirmation bias - ask the question in the right way and you get the answer you're looking for. Christopher Volpehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04169170001831304788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-19512462585197490012013-01-18T10:36:37.675-05:002013-01-18T10:36:37.675-05:00I just found in fact that the formula in the Jocon...I just found in fact that the formula in the Joconde gives 0.6180339... that is 1/1.6180339<br />so, it's not a mistake it's just the expression of the ratio and not the "Golden number" itself<br />Sorry !syldemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15981022619180542597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-89453700008643994712013-01-18T10:24:35.629-05:002013-01-18T10:24:35.629-05:00Yes Mr Gurney, that's correct but "your&q...Yes Mr Gurney, that's correct but "your" formula is in fact the only positive solution of the equation "x2-x-1=0" and the mistake on the Joconde picture is that we have somewhere (1-x) that gives a negative value. Then we obtain something positive equal to something negative. oups ! ;-) syldemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15981022619180542597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-32509536498310647052013-01-18T04:24:29.921-05:002013-01-18T04:24:29.921-05:00Syldem, I think the correct algebraic formula for ...Syldem, I think the correct algebraic formula for the golden ratio is "one plus the square root of five divided by two."James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-39916476127979575172013-01-17T19:57:17.711-05:002013-01-17T19:57:17.711-05:00I think you are actually upsetting pi carts. I think you are actually upsetting pi carts. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423051076809524563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-38654054449165152532013-01-16T22:15:50.115-05:002013-01-16T22:15:50.115-05:00Forget the golden mean, and the nautilus, and thin...Forget the golden mean, and the nautilus, and think for a moment of the pretzel which has a neat shape too. And if you pick up a pretzel after it's knocked out of the cart, and wipe off the dirt, it tastes pretty good.Dan Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13130079803891606515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-84444142859840921532013-01-16T21:04:19.165-05:002013-01-16T21:04:19.165-05:00In my own experience as an architect, I can tell y...In my own experience as an architect, I can tell you that you can find the golden mean if you look for it hard enough. Much like interpreting the predictions of Nostradamus, if you try hard enough to make something fit, focus on the elements that support your case, and ignore the elements that don't, you can argue for the existence of any number of 'special' relationships in something as complex as a piece of architecture.brueggerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02883028169275423067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-41604423845078250582013-01-16T19:35:34.136-05:002013-01-16T19:35:34.136-05:00Excellent post! Great to see someone rationalize a...Excellent post! Great to see someone rationalize about such an established idea. To me this fact alone is great and more important than if it's actually true or not. Everyone can just make their own conclusions.Mario Fernandeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01081657536265190642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-86799878313533316292013-01-16T18:48:03.100-05:002013-01-16T18:48:03.100-05:00And then there’s the “poor old” Nautilus… http://w...And then there’s the “poor old” Nautilus… http://www.laputanlogic.com/articles/2005/04/14-1647-4601.htmlRobNonStophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08895067016170660808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-71835539054030814212013-01-16T16:40:31.240-05:002013-01-16T16:40:31.240-05:00Fascinating topic, JG. I'm naturally a skepti...Fascinating topic, JG. I'm naturally a skeptic as well, but was shown an amazing demonstration by a painting professor at B.U. (Richard Raiselis) of the Golden Mean used in Hopper's "Night Owls". He projected a slide of the painting on the wall and proceeded with a yardstick and string to show us how various angles and verticals lined up perfectly with each other using phi (and some other things I can't remember). Shall I introduce the two of you online?Mark Henghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05872172199243865094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-61744634496255018432013-01-16T15:19:40.480-05:002013-01-16T15:19:40.480-05:00In art school I understood that the Golden Section...In art school I understood that the Golden Section ratio was settled upon because it was the 'natural' way most people tended to divide up space. Maybe that is bunk, too. Never consciously use it.mphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07926885394879793881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-484266421246525972013-01-16T14:55:29.123-05:002013-01-16T14:55:29.123-05:00The persistence of certain ratios throughout natur...The persistence of certain ratios throughout nature would suggest a sort of singular source behind it all. How better to make great art than to mimic the methods of the great creator?<br />To debunk the assumption of the natural occurrence of the ratios in nature as well as their artistic application would be refreshing.Mark Shashahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13326683665848571114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-54165929772221333602013-01-16T13:46:30.792-05:002013-01-16T13:46:30.792-05:00Hi James, when are you going to write a book on co...Hi James, when are you going to write a book on composition to compliment your excellent colour and light?<br />Julieartisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08410953270926221898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-3722480289686197172013-01-16T12:34:30.824-05:002013-01-16T12:34:30.824-05:00JC Barquet, that is a very important question, and...JC Barquet, that is a very important question, and I'll get to it the day after tomorrow.James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-57477890234849028802013-01-16T12:21:15.473-05:002013-01-16T12:21:15.473-05:00Leaving aside the debates on whether or not the go...Leaving aside the debates on whether or not the golden ratio is present in the work of certain artists or particular pieces of art, I am especially interested in why we supposedly perceive this ratio as attractive. Is there a scientific explanation as to how we think of the proportion as beautiful?Juan Carlos Barquethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10386321847527508131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-79000274506952921832013-01-16T11:30:21.940-05:002013-01-16T11:30:21.940-05:00You do a good job of exposing the persistence of l...You do a good job of exposing the persistence of logical fallacies in painting theory. Especially theories that cherry pick facts, and rely on proof through verbosity. But, as you point out, if the use of a logical fallacy still results in a good painting, then what is the harm? But if it results in intimidating a student of painting to feel inadequate, or somehow too ignorant to make a "proper" painting then I guess that is a harm.Steve Somershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05829016758196021044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-33559125596789875182013-01-16T11:08:04.766-05:002013-01-16T11:08:04.766-05:00Great series of posts this is becoming. I myself w...Great series of posts this is becoming. I myself was not comfortable with these theories .. too much analysis.Ganapathy Subramaniamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01330309196157676681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-39711604150367234212013-01-16T11:00:29.446-05:002013-01-16T11:00:29.446-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.P-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345150811369394106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-71847541504650781672013-01-16T10:46:37.032-05:002013-01-16T10:46:37.032-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.P-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345150811369394106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-36341051800081460692013-01-16T10:36:20.144-05:002013-01-16T10:36:20.144-05:00And if we put in the mixture some cropping of the ...And if we put in the mixture some cropping of the original Giocconda, then the Golden Mean may seem more unatainable (or not, who knows)...<br />I always heard the original picture had some columns, but I couldn't find my original source.<br />So, some Wikipedia here:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculation_about_Mona_Lisatayetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01328350362311792123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-2116421113460483652013-01-16T09:51:18.102-05:002013-01-16T09:51:18.102-05:00Now you've gone and done it...upsetting pretze...Now you've gone and done it...upsetting pretzel carts everywhere!Leslie Haweshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17933649274394414938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-1943878545748181122013-01-16T09:49:41.779-05:002013-01-16T09:49:41.779-05:00Very interesting, thank's. But it seem's t...Very interesting, thank's. But it seem's that there is a little mistake in the formula on the Joconde's picture. The correct formule should be : 1/x = x/(x+1) that makes x2 - x = 1<br />don't you think so ? ;-)syldemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15981022619180542597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-50159342341128387102013-01-16T09:49:11.144-05:002013-01-16T09:49:11.144-05:00Excellent post. Next up in the myth busting depart...Excellent post. Next up in the myth busting department: The Hockney/Falco optical theory?WWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05873450855450455884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-59365414304615204332013-01-16T09:33:26.872-05:002013-01-16T09:33:26.872-05:00The kicker for me in debunking the application of ...The kicker for me in debunking the application of the Golden Mean to the Vitruvian man is that, as you mention, Leonardo was such a fanatic note taker, and (to my knowledge) his notes on the Vitruvian man include no mention of phi (by any of its names).Tom Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04770238579550226268noreply@blogger.com