tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post5869309269774833434..comments2024-03-28T16:36:12.581-04:00Comments on Gurney Journey: Teachers ReworkingJames Gurneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-30486967955411714192016-11-06T20:20:49.904-05:002016-11-06T20:20:49.904-05:00I never attended Art school, and the workshops I&#...I never attended Art school, and the workshops I've attended nobody attempted to draw on my work... HOWEVER, I used to instruct dog training classes, where I was teaching the owner's to train their dogs... let me tell you it is WAY easier for me to train the dog, than to train the PEOPLE to train the dog. In the beginning I had 'Gimme that dog' moments where I'd take the dog and use it to demonstrate how to teach an untrained dog how to sit for example. In short order, due to my skill with dogs and my method of training, and because the dog didn't know me and so was probably wary of an obvious alpha person... the dog would quickly learn the lesson and show quick progress... handing the leash back to the owner however I realized the owner hadn't learned anything, and the dog quickly reverted to behavior he knew he could get away with. Eventually, I broke myself of taking people's dogs and using them as demo dogs... it wasn't helpful to the dog, or the student. I think an art teacher that draws over a students work... is doing the same thing, and the student resents it and doesn't learn much from having the experience.Capt Elaine Magliacanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10919763270702138153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-80205782045206301452016-11-06T17:53:38.216-05:002016-11-06T17:53:38.216-05:00In the beginning of my learning I ended up with a ...In the beginning of my learning I ended up with a painter/teacher who would work over our pieces if we had trouble with an area, whether anatomical, about shapes, values, temperatures, etc. I didn't like his ways because I never learned anything from someone reworking over my errors. In the end I understood that he did it because he was unable to explain clearly, logically. Even his reworking on my self-portrait were off, the head he did was too big, but he didn't care enough about his students' learning.<br /><br />Fast forward. I later took an alla prima portrait workshop with Dorian Valejo. On the 3rd day I was having trouble with our final assignement. What he did, he asked for my panel to do a demo for me. I erased my useless attempt (I could also have pulled out another painting pannel, but what I had done that day wasn't worth saving). And he did a demo for me on this pannel dedicated to this purpose. I saved the demo as such, never working over it. This way I have an example to refer to. I really appreciated his way of showing me how to correct my mistakes.xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11195903782909568211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-75416115375435023372016-11-06T17:24:45.424-05:002016-11-06T17:24:45.424-05:00I attended art school in LA at Chouinard in the 6...I attended art school in LA at Chouinard in the 60s. It was a wake up call to see all the talented kids that were there from all over the US. My life drawing teachers were Watson Cross and Herbert Jepson. I liked having them draw on my work. It was when I learned the lesson that at best most of our work is just shavings on the floor when working on the bigger piece...our art careers.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16615114928022552119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-25416505797857408582011-12-06T10:47:10.955-05:002011-12-06T10:47:10.955-05:00I know this is an older post, but I had one teache...I know this is an older post, but I had one teacher like that in college and it really irritated me - and I told him so, several times. I would go to extreme lengths to try and make sure his bush or pencil didn't get to whatever I was working on. It kinda became a running joke.<br /><br />My main problem with a teacher drawing or painting over my work is that I am supposed to be learning something - and I'm a visual and tactile learner. Someone else doing something to "correct" my work , or show me a "better way" to do something never helped me understand what was wrong in the first place. Sometimes I couldn't see what what was wrong, and someone coming in (without my permission) and "fixing it" (especially if they were just fixing it so it would conform to how they would have painted it)just left more confused. <br /><br />I learn much better if something is simply pointed out to me and then I actively try and fix whatever it was that was wrong. That way I see the correlation between what I did wrong and what I did to fix it.<br /><br />But I think that everyone learns differently (my sister is the exact opposite of me) and a part of their responsibility as an artist and a student is to understand themselves: how they learn, how they communicate, how they see, etc. Then they have to figure out how the make the most of whatever learning environment they are in. I think it's the teacher's responsibility to open doors; a teacher should never take the stance of "my way is the best and you have to do it my way if you want to succeed".<br /><br />I think it's great to be able to learn from master artists, but the point isn't, or shouldn't, be to draw or paint like them; it's to become and be true to the artist that it is in you to be. I think artist are always pushing towards that goal, or they should. <br /><br />Anyway. I was fortunate to only have to struggle with one of those teachers, so it could have been worse.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00193636559987656907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-83807014763874961112010-11-24T01:00:01.804-05:002010-11-24T01:00:01.804-05:00Interesting question... I think it is sensible to ...Interesting question... I think it is sensible to know your students. If you do that, it is a lot easier to know whether or not they would want you marking over their piece. Personally I wouldn't invade someones sheet without asking first.<br /><br />using a spare paper is an obvious alternative.Poetry Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03673872305219610428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-17184947804783166832010-08-29T01:55:26.213-04:002010-08-29T01:55:26.213-04:00New to the blog, but late to the post...
My instr...New to the blog, but late to the post...<br /><br />My instructor and mentor was Betty Dickerson, student of B.J.O. Nordfeldt, and wife of William Dickerson - who in turn was part of the Prairie Print Makers. Due to Bill's associations, I strongly suspect she also had learned a few things from Edward Hopper and Birger Sandzen, too.<br /><br />When I joined her class, I was only 15, and remember she drew an entire hand on my first drawing of a long pose. I was pretty meek at the time, and didn't speak up.<br />As my skills advanced, she started to make thumbnail sketches off to the side, or on another piece of paper to explain the point she was making.<br />Quite often she would drag me by the hand up to the model and start drawing directly on her skin at certain points to emphasize shadow or points of musculature. I've never met another teacher who has done that.<br />I remember once taking on a difficult position behind a prone model, which put her upside down in relationship to the top of the canvas. Betty thought it was amusing, and dashed off a little stick-figure of me feverishly sweating behind the easel, the model lazily smoking a cigarette in front. We laughed pretty hard over that one, and I still have it in my portfolio.<br /><br />Betty didn't draw or paint often in her later years, and now that she's gone, I really wish I had more examples of her instruction to consult.knoxbloxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13266844685398547107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-52377417961162342382010-08-02T14:35:56.173-04:002010-08-02T14:35:56.173-04:00Nightlanding, that seems the most sensible to me, ...Nightlanding, that seems the most sensible to me, too. Doing a thumbnail sketch to clarify a point is a great help. It's like a movie director may try to talk indirectly about what they want out of the character, rather than actually trying to tell the actor the exact inflection they want on the lines of dialog.James Gurneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870848001990898499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-70684440940484936742010-07-31T18:35:15.468-04:002010-07-31T18:35:15.468-04:00I'm surprised, after reading so many posts/com...I'm surprised, after reading so many posts/comments that this approach did not come up:<br />As the teacher in my classroom, I will often work and help on exercises and thumbnails/sketches...but stay away from their final works. <br />My students never work straight to a final---we do many, many exercises that are just that--excercises. We use them as learning experiences and the students aren't as personally attached to the piece, but MORE to the Experience and Process....then they can OWN their own FINAL works...as I nurture their growth.Prettylineshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06155884238301207721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-22371033651812308042010-07-31T18:34:54.914-04:002010-07-31T18:34:54.914-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Prettylineshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06155884238301207721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-15883436021467665992010-01-23T12:56:04.593-05:002010-01-23T12:56:04.593-05:00Really enjoy the blog here! I have read all the co...Really enjoy the blog here! I have read all the comments. I think the key words here are 'in the classroom' where you are the student. It's not like you are in your own studio working on what you believe to be the next masterpiece of the art world. You are a student taking a class from someone with more experience. You are there to learn from them. I learned more from my professors coming by and correcting my work and showing me 'how it should be done' in their own hand next to my feable attempt. It's not just the correction of the drawing but watching them execute it that I learned even more. Even if it was just the way they moved their hand working on the exact same spot I had been painstakingly trying to execute was invaluable to me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06018820533549123330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-61949331665825393792009-06-10T15:30:49.867-04:002009-06-10T15:30:49.867-04:00I was struggling with the rendering of a foot in o...I was struggling with the rendering of a foot in oil painting class. The teacher walked up, picked up a brush and painted one in for me, quickly explaining the planes of the foot as he did so. To see it was helpful, but I was really proud of the piece and his style of painting was not mine, so it infuriated me. Also, I already knew that he knew how to draw and paint feet, I wanted to know that I could do it. So I scraped his off and painted my own version of it using what he told me. It always bothered me that he didn't ask first.<br /><br />When conducting workshops and classes I keep those feelings of anger in mind and never draw on another persons art. (Though once I was tempted.) I find a blank sheet or canvas somewhere and demonstrate for them what I want them to learn, but I don't do it for them on their work.Mark Vander Vinnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16476599669551577334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-62825736513106827102009-06-10T12:39:49.772-04:002009-06-10T12:39:49.772-04:00Well, my college teachers will usually rework my t...Well, my college teachers will usually rework my things on tracing paper, on roughs they may draw to the side of it. <br />On occasion my figure drawing teacher would draw over my shorter 5minutes and under sketches. I didn't mind this too much since you are suppose to draw tons of short sketches and it cant hurt to lose a few. If a drawing had problems it is better to see a teacher correct than hang on to it only to throw it away later.<br /><br />Im not sure if drawing over the work would be appropriate for younger students, I remember in grade school I didn't understand it when teachers did that and would take offense instead of leaning from it.Christy Morgan Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05989890013723936489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-32317690533104811022009-06-10T11:29:02.103-04:002009-06-10T11:29:02.103-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.i, mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14866554133662047782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-57154375650397860062009-06-09T14:02:41.548-04:002009-06-09T14:02:41.548-04:00In college I had a sports coach who got great resu...In college I had a sports coach who got great results, despite his physically and verbally abusive methods. <br /><br />While the example of a teacher drawing on one's work without asking doesn't quite meet the definition of abuse, it's worth remembering that results aren't the only measure of a good teacher.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-26137998785388489362009-06-08T23:55:01.891-04:002009-06-08T23:55:01.891-04:00Everyone's being rather harsh on Erik but I ha...Everyone's being rather harsh on Erik but I have to say in a similar situation where the teacher just dashed in and tried to scribble on my paper I would probably do something very similar. I probably wouldn't grab the teacher's hand, but I'd definitely raise a hand in a "stop!" motion to block him/her.<br />Personal space is <i>important</i> to me and that extends to my drawing paper. The teacher can try to point something out that I'm missing by comparing my drawing with the model, offer suggestions, or demonstrate on another paper, but they SHOULD NOT be touching my paper. <br /><br />Then again, most or all of my teachers have generally recognized that I work best when they mostly leave me alone, and so I tend not to get many comments on pieces before a finished critique. It's more common for me to finish early, and end up going round and offering suggestions on fellow student's work while chatting. And I never, ever draw on someone's paper. If I have to demonstrate a line, I mark it in the air above the drawing or on another sheet of paper. I think it's terribly rude to invade someone's space like that and claim the drawing as your own by marking all over it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-91472501420306415642009-06-08T18:46:44.524-04:002009-06-08T18:46:44.524-04:00I've also heard that Bridgman would reel back ...I've also heard that Bridgman would reel back and spit on his students' drawings if they particularly offended him.<br />My high schoolart teacher, whom I respected greatly, would occasionally ask "may I?" and take the charcoal to indicate a correction to a student work, and we all being highscoolers still intimidated by authority, would allow him to redraw the area. Except me. The one time he asked me, "May I?" I hesitated for a second and then asked if he'd mind drawing on a separate piece of paper so I could compare. He felt this was a good compromise and afterwards I noticed more of my classmates requesting the same.treplovskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05006279676166248221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-51137345689838989562009-06-08T15:20:47.688-04:002009-06-08T15:20:47.688-04:00Um....I don't like anybody touching my actual ...Um....I don't like anybody touching my actual work, except me. (Unless it is known to be collaborative from the get go.) Had I been in that student's shoes, I would have been offended.<br /><br />Of course, if the instructor asks if he can demonstrate on your piece, that's polite, and you can say no, or you can ask him if he could demonstrate on a blank piece of paper. (And as somebody pointed out, sometimes it REALLY does help to see a technique<br /><br />Honestly, I think when a teacher starts drawing over their student's work, it becomes more about their ego as an artist, and less about their teaching. If they are to impart their knowledge, the proof of it should be in their students' ability to paint without the teacher's hand on the brush.<br /><br />Now, THAT said, one thing I find incredibly useful is the "paintover" done digitally. On one art site I participate on, very often people will crop a section and do a quick and very rough paintover to show what they mean: if the anatomy is off, if the composition is weighted too heavily to one side, if the colours are too disparate. It is very common to see this in the crit sections but A) the original file hasn't been changed B) the work still needs to be replicated by the original artist C) the original artist can choose NOT to implement it, and D) it's more of a guide or a suggestion, not a DO IT THIS WAY OR ELSE!PixelFishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14663536968452455022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-76976654701876961922009-06-08T15:18:47.392-04:002009-06-08T15:18:47.392-04:00There are MANY artists I'd want to paint over ...There are MANY artists I'd want to paint over my work - living and dead. I think it comes down to if you want to learn from the artist in question more than you want to admire your latest piece. I feel it's an important step for an artist to learn that a single work is insignificant in the long view...if you can't re-create the art reliably, you haven't mastered the process.marctarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01694443304958109350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-40857847174380561032009-06-08T12:53:35.912-04:002009-06-08T12:53:35.912-04:00meridith when you're working on studies in cla...meridith when you're working on studies in class it's a given that your work is subject to alternation.<br /><br />One of the problems with art schools these days (other than the complete lack of teaching in most accredited uni. schools) is this attitude. Its to the point where in many classes teachers are afraid to even criticize - especially in pay as you go ateliers - because sometimes they tell students what they dont' want to hear. <br /><br />i have a few studies that my teacher (a quite well known name and excellent painter) worked over. I can see where he took my work - and seeing that happen with something YOU started but cant' get to is an invaluable aid.<br /><br />I have also seen another great teacher at the League take a carefully worked piece a friend was working on and totally wipe it out and simpfliy - it was EXACTLY what my friend needed because he was fretting and worrying over every stroke... from that day forward his painting improved ten fold.i, mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14866554133662047782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-63776929031141023062009-06-08T12:08:09.422-04:002009-06-08T12:08:09.422-04:00I honestly think that it's ok for a teacher to...I honestly think that it's ok for a teacher to do so. The best figure drawing teacher that I've ever had(@Ringling School of Art & Design) would do it, not all the time but when needed and in front of the whole class.<br />He took my charcoal drawing, put in on an easel in front of the class. Spoke about what worked(sometimes he would draw right next to it) and what didn't and to illustrate how to unify shadows he went ahead and wiped his hand across the whole thing ,unified it then drew on it. Of course it shocked me and the rest of the class but not only did it show me how it made it better but also to not get too attached to the work. I think that's also a very important lesson. When you get too attached you stunt your growth and tend not to take chances to discover new things. That and if you're going to be an illustrator or work in any commercial art field it helps not to get too attached when clients want changes made.<br /><br />Again, he didn't do it all the time but when he did it it was great. His name is Fiore Custode and the man is truly a master.albertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02538738671682211003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-73558477595494273972009-06-08T10:57:54.433-04:002009-06-08T10:57:54.433-04:00Everyone's being too hard on Erik. The teacher...Everyone's being too hard on Erik. The teacher shouldn't have violated his personal space by working on his drawing without his permission.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-23547813767375908932009-06-07T23:30:13.686-04:002009-06-07T23:30:13.686-04:00I had a teacher who used to competely take over if...I had a teacher who used to competely take over if I asked him for any advice. He would sometimes get really into drawing or painting over over my work and he forget that I was still standing at his side. He never really explained what he was doing. This really irritiated me and I never felt that my work was truly my own if had helped it.<br /><br />My current teacher always explains the why and how behind what he is doing. He always will show me how to do things on a seperate peices of paper, which I really apreciate.Chinamihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02191312279870624251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-68978250998110862022009-06-07T21:09:17.976-04:002009-06-07T21:09:17.976-04:00I am currently a student at the Pennsylvania Acade...I am currently a student at the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts and my friends and I have discussed this issue quite a few times. I have had teachers work directly on my paintings, drawings and sculptures. Sometimes I appreciate it immensely and other times I resent it in equal measure. When my objective is to produce a working study aimed at improving in any number of technical regards, it is fair game. However, when I am aiming to produce a work which will showcase my accumulated skill and personal view, it should not be worked over by anyone else...after all, it will carry my signature. I think both are important diagnostics which should be incorporated into the curriculum. <br /> The long and short of this issue, in my opinion, is that communication between the student and teacher is necessary. It is even more important that the objectives of the work be clear and agreed upon by both of them.In my experience this line is far too blurry for either party to behave appropriately.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-50628538214300204662009-06-07T21:04:50.212-04:002009-06-07T21:04:50.212-04:00Erik: I think you have no business learning from t...Erik: I think you have no business learning from that teacher, especially since its a voluntary thing. (no one forces you to take a class). you seem 'proud' that you intimated your teacher. You probably also stopped him from teaching you.i, mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14866554133662047782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2999230124118604245.post-43198766457189284952009-06-07T21:01:58.117-04:002009-06-07T21:01:58.117-04:00I am chiming in a little late, but I studied all m...I am chiming in a little late, but I studied all my teachers painted (or drew over my work at the art students league, with the exception of one who drew to the side. the lessons of seeing your own work corrected are invaluable. <br />I also agree with the 'precious' comments - you are learning a process, not making a thing. when you start to fall in love with your little moments of perfection you're sending a message to your sub conscious that its an accident rather than an ability.i, mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14866554133662047782noreply@blogger.com